Chatty AF 202: Revolutionary Woman Utena Watchalong – Episodes 13-20 (WITH TRANSCRIPT)

Cy, and Chiaki, and Vrai return and dive into the Black Rose Saga, the significance of the secondary forged, and Anthy’s deepening characterization.

0:00:00 Intros
0:02:34 Content material Warnings
0:03:09 Word on translation
0:05:05 Catching Up
0:07:00 The financial bubble
0:08:37 Filler
0:11:52 Nanami episode
0:14:22 Anthy
0:24:15 Symbolism
0:26:52 Grownup content material
0:29:12 Shiori
0:38:53 Wakaba
0:41:00 Saionji
0:46:30 The Onion Prince
0:53:25 The loss of life tower?
0:55:36 Subsequent time…
0:57:34 Outro

VRAI: Hiya and welcome to Chatty AF: The Anime Feminist Podcast and our 200-episode-and-plus spectacular, the place we cowl Revolutionary Woman Utena with myself, who’s watched it too many occasions, and my two great cohosts, who’re watching it for the primary time. Cy and Chiaki, do you need to introduce yourselves?

CHIAKI: Hello, I’m Chiaki Hirai. I’m one of many editors for AniFem, enterprise supervisor, and you will discover me at @Chiaki747 on the chicken website that’s slowly dying—lifeless chicken website—and (horrible moe) at Bluesky, @chiaki747 on Cohost and @chiaki747 on Twitch, @chiaki747 on VStream, @chiaki74— Simply reduce me off, Peter. (Chuckles)

VRAI: Woman, it’s important to get— Simply get a Linktree! Woman!

CY: I used to be gonna say, the place’s your Linktree or your Carrd, Chiaki? Come into 2024.

CHIAKI: It’s actually

CY: Ah!

VRAI: Honest.

CY: I really like that. And I’m Cy. And you will discover me @pixelatedlenses on all the pieces, together with Twitter as a result of I refuse to replace it on my telephone and, y’all, it’s breaking, however I nonetheless bought that chicken. And that’s what counts.

VRAI: (Chuckles) Counts for one thing. And I’m Vrai Kaiser. I’m not on social media all that a lot. I’m on Bluesky @writervrai. However extra importantly, we’ve got, talking of Linktrees, consolidated all of AniFem’s hyperlinks onto And should you’re ever searching for stuff, whether or not that’s our website, our retailer, our Patreon, you will discover all of them there very simply. It’s cool beans!

This week, we’re masking episodes 13 by means of 20, which is the primary recap episode and the primary half of the Black Rose Saga. As a reminder to people within the feedback, this can be a spoiler-free podcast, so all the pieces we’ve lined up thus far is honest recreation, however please be conscious of other people who is perhaps watching the collection for the primary time. Additionally, normal content material warnings. This present is kind of pre–rules about flashing lights, so there are plenty of them, particularly in the course of the duel sequences. And in addition, bear in mind, principally all through, content material warnings for implications of sexual abuse, incest, and naturally situations of bodily abuse, and plenty of baby abuse. Am I forgetting something?

CHIAKI: No, I feel that about covers it.

CY: I used to be simply gonna say, I feel that covers it.

VRAI: I additionally needed to chime in, final— Once we recorded the primary episode, I used to be simply utilizing my Blu-ray as a result of I’m lazy, however I watched on Crunchyroll this time round. And so, simply as a translation watch, from the outdated DVDs, too, Crunchyroll is the truth is utilizing the brand new, up to date Blu-ray translation thread. And one of many extra vital adjustments that I needed to flag up for folk who could haven’t watched the up to date translation is the newer subs translate “Utena-sama” as “Mistress” somewhat than “Miss,” which, I really feel like, actually hammers residence the loadedness of the connection that makes Utena so uncomfortable. So I feel it was a good selection.


CY: Yeah.

VRAI: Yeah. Yeah! (Shudders)

CY: I do need to chime in that, for anybody who was involved and listened to the earlier episode, I did watch it in Japanese. Okay, are all of us completely satisfied?

CHIAKI: Shaggy dog story: I watched this over twice to verify I bought it, so the second time, I watched it in English.

VRAI: So you bought that Dan Inexperienced goodness.

CHIAKI: Yeah, I did. It was fairly good.


CY: Vindication! Aw, yeah. I do suppose this arc would haven’t… (Chuckles) I feel this arc would’ve despatched me on an emotional curler coaster had I watched it in English.

VRAI: I want to complain that Crunchyroll doesn’t use the precise ending credit. They use the English credit that used to run after all of the episodes on the Nozomi DVDs simply as an additional little factor. And that’s not the tip of the world (heh-heh), but it surely does hassle me. It bothers me so much, particularly as soon as we get to the second ending, which has a very neat story round fandom preservation to it. Yeah. So, yeah! As a normal feeler-out, how y’all feeling?

CY: God, they’re youngsters! Oh, they’re youngsters! Oh, God. The place’s an grownup?

VRAI: Yep! (Laughs)

CY: The place’s an precise authorized grownup as a substitute of a center schooler being like, “I find out about grownup issues like watching folks kiss in a film or… jewellery!” The place’s an precise grownup, please?

CHIAKI: Properly, have you ever seen the precise grownup?

CY: (crosstalk) And the primary one was an elementary college child!


VRAI: Anthy’s brother is an grownup. Yeah, Akio’s an grownup.

CY: Okay, let me rephrase.

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) That, too, but additionally, but additionally, Mikage’s like… These guys in Mikage’s workplace going like, “Hey, uh, I would like some assist from ya.” You understand, these official-looking folks.

CY: (crosstalk) Let me rephrase. The place is a secure grownup? A secure grownup that’s a compulsory reporter, that has to inform the principal, “Hey, there may be some shit taking place. Did you see that rose membership? We didn’t authorize that. The place’s the paperwork?” That type of grownup.

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) I don’t know if the principal would essentially care.

VRAI: I’ve such unhealthy information for you, Cy.

CY: They’re such little youngsters! (Chuckles painfully)

VRAI: (mournful) Yeah. Yep.

CY: (mournful) It’s unhappy.

VRAI: Additionally, Tsuwabuki’s not even a center schooler. He’s in sixth grade (Editor’s notice: probably fourth grade, so an excellent tinier baby). He’s a tiny child. I suppose that’s center college in some locations, however…

CY: I do love that he was like, “I find out about grownup issues,” proceeds to observe folks kiss in motion pictures.

VRAI: (Chuckles)

CY: Like, candy baby! Oh, little child!

VRAI: He’s so little and in addition small!

CY: Oh, he’s so small.

VRAI: He’s little.

CY: (crosstalk) None of them are prepared. None of them are able to be adults.


CY: Oh, none of them are prepared.

VRAI: You’ve stumble on the theme! (Chuckles) I do— There may be an attention-grabbing story. So, final time, I learn one of many items of creator commentary from the booklet that comes together with the field units, and there’s some attention-grabbing stuff in relation to the primary Black Rose episode, the place Ikuhara kind of talks about what initially him when he was penning this arc. 

And I’m not going to learn the entire thing, as a result of there’s one other one I need to learn and this one’s somewhat lengthy. However he principally talks about discourse in Japan being this very polarized factor the place you’re both profitable or a loser, you’re wealthy otherwise you’re broke, you’ve gained otherwise you’ve misplaced, you’re chosen otherwise you’re not, and having this e-book particularly concerning the bubble period that basically caught in his thoughts. Which, he would have grown up in the course of the bubble, after which Utena would have been made after the bubble burst. So I really feel like that kind of sense of betrayal is type of an attention-grabbing undercurrent to the collection.

CHIAKI: Yeah. I feel, identical to the 2008 Lehman shock, the Japanese bubble bursting principally traumatized a whole era of Japanese folks. So, completely a factor that will type of shake the very core perception of your house in society.

VRAI: Yeah, the opposite attention-grabbing factor concerning the Black Rose Saga… For folk who weren’t round again within the 2000s, across the time, it was not common however highly regarded for battle shounen, notably long-runners, to go one in all two methods, the place both you’ll break off from the manga completely and you’ll do anime-only materials, kind of like Sailor Moon or Soul Eater or Fullmetal Alchemist ‘03, otherwise you would kind of stall and do self-contained anime-original plots when you waited for the manga to catch up, principally. 

These arcs could possibly be irritating for longtime viewers as a result of they are often attention-grabbing and have attention-grabbing characters of their very own accord however they’re not likely allowed to make dramatic adjustments when it comes to long-term character progress or adjustments to the world since you don’t need to overwrite one thing that is perhaps disproven by the manga you’re ready to adapt later. And that was the unique, very particular context of the phrase “filler.” The phrase “filler” rapidly misplaced all which means and ultimately subtle to such a degree that folks use it for simply any outdated factor that principally means “episode I don’t like or didn’t really feel instantly superior the plot sufficient.” I deliver it up as a result of it was not common but additionally not unusual for folks to say that you possibly can skip the Black Rose Saga again within the day—that it was filler between the primary and third arc.

CY: (crosstalk) What? What?

VRAI: Uh-huh.

CY: Excuse me? What?! (Chuckles)

VRAI: Uh-huh. I guarantee you, you can’t do it!

CY: (crosstalk) That is so important to the present.

VRAI: Uh-huh!

CY: No! No, that is so important. So many issues get opened and we be taught so many horrible issues about the best way Anthy’s entire existence is. What?

CHIAKI: I don’t see this as—

CY: The web is flawed.

CHIAKI: Yeah, how do you take a look at this and go, “Sure, that is completely filler. This has nothing to do with something”?

VRAI: I imagine the logic… Principally, that is subjective expertise, as a result of I’ll admit that I’m kind of burned out on Shonen Soar and battle shounen usually’s entire factor and fairly cynical about it, however this was a take I principally noticed from individuals who fairly solely watched battle shounen. And I feel the logic is that this arc focuses on fleshing out secondary characters so much and it isn’t explicitly about Utena and the thriller about her prince.

CHIAKI: Oh, I see. So it’s as a result of none of those characters matter.

CY: Excuse me!


VRAI: Sure, Chiaki, you’ve nailed it.

CY: (crosstalk) Ooh, wow, the web has some…

CHIAKI: (Chuckles) Ah, persons are so literate.

CY: It’s so wild to me that somebody may say you possibly can skip this entire-ass arc that has so much taking place and has some actually large emotional moments that positively are going to change how Anthy and Utena’s relationship is, going forward. What? Oh— Mm. Ooh, wow. Oof. (Chuckles) Wow!

CHIAKI: You understand what, although? There may be some filler on this arc.

VRAI: Uh-huh?

CHIAKI: And it’s the Nanami episode.

VRAI: That is incorrect! Nanami episodes are essential!

CHIAKI: Are you positive?

VRAI: They’re essential to the general themes.

CHIAKI: (Chuckles)

VRAI: Sure, they’re essential to “I must not break down and cry about these youngsters each 5 minutes. Please!”

CHIAKI: Honest.

CY: You understand what? I’ll completely say—I’ll die on this hill—that cow episode is crucial viewing.

CHIAKI: In a means, sure.

CY: And should you skip it, you might be gonna miss a really poignant a part of this general story.

VRAI: (Chuckles)

CY: And in addition a lesson on how typically while you purchase a faux otherwise you get anyone else’s stuff, it’s not for you. And I’ll die on that hill. (Chuckles)

CHIAKI: Generally you simply need to be a cow.

CY: That cow episode is seared into my mind.

VRAI: Mm-hm!

CY: God, typically you do exactly need to be a cow!

CHIAKI: Have you ever ever heard of furries?

VRAI: (Chuckles)

CY: You understand what? This should have been actually— This may need been somebody’s awakening.


VRAI: You understand what?

CY: (crosstalk) I may simply placed on a canine collar and simply, like… You understand?

VRAI: And good for that particular person.

CY: Shoutout to my furries. Shoutout to my feminist furries. And scalies. Love y’all.

VRAI: Yeah. I feel that’s good. It’s additionally actually humorous to me that folks get actually confused by the Nanami episodes when, not less than to me, they’ve probably the most straightforwardly written ethical parables about them, as such.

CY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they do.

VRAI: Like, plenty of wacky stuff occurs in that episode, but it surely fairly on-the-nose tells you that pretending that you recognize one thing while you don’t will most likely make you look silly.

CY: Yeah. I do love, in that episode, although, that one other lesson is that Utena may additionally communicate Spanish as a result of she does hit that “¡Ole!” She hits it like completely, and I used to be like, “Okay, Utena! A lady of many abilities!”


VRAI: This is a vital element. (Chuckles)

CY: It truly is. Additionally that Anthy can knit. I stan a fiber artwork queen.

VRAI: She has so many abilities.

CY: And a lot trauma!

VRAI: (crosstalk) How are y’all feeling about Anthy, by the best way? I really feel like I ought to test in with y’all on that each week.

CY: Wow. Um… I actually need Anthy to get remedy and emancipation from all the pieces.

CHIAKI: Yeah. Properly, she’s in such an atmosphere the place she doesn’t acknowledge that everybody round her is horrible. And it’s very troublesome… Like, until anyone suggests she will get remedy, she’s by no means going to get it, and I don’t suppose anybody inside this group of individuals will ever counsel that. So, you recognize, she’s most likely going to be somewhat trapped there. And, you recognize, that is the place fanfiction would are available in, the place you simply insert your self and also you go, “I’m taking Anthy to a psychiatrist. A therapist.”

VRAI: If solely there was anyone there who may save her from the state of affairs.

CHIAKI: Or Utena was somewhat bit extra conscious of the way to deal with one thing like this usually as a substitute of getting duels.

VRAI: Yeah…

CY: Granted, she’s a center schooler, so I don’t blame her for not realizing the way to deal with this. Which, I did say a number of occasions that these are youngsters. Wow, are these youngsters.

VRAI: Yeah, it’s unhappy and intensely irritating in such an actual means that Utena is just not choosing up any of the unhealthy vibes round this very cool grownup.

CY: Uh, yeah, um… Can we discuss him?

VRAI: No, sure, please!

CY: Are we going to go episode by episode, however can we…?

VRAI: I’ve this structured episode by episode, however we will additionally simply vibes. Yeah, no, please, do inform me your ideas about Akio.

CY: Oh, wow. So I used to be vibing and I used to be like, “Ah, he looks as if a good man.” It’s attention-grabbing as a result of Akio is type of the one darker-skinned SEA (Southeast Asian) marked character, coded character that has some degree of energy. After which I came upon why he had some energy, as a result of I used to be like, “Oh, no, is that why Anthy’s going to go to her brother? Oh, no!” And I bought actually scared as a result of I had a sudden realization that perhaps there’s some incest on this collection, and perhaps that’s very unhealthy! Oh, no, Akio, you suck.

VRAI: I did warn you concerning the incest.

CY: Oh, and now I perceive, as a result of all these years I’ve seen an image of this brown-skinned man with this brown-skinned woman, and I used to be like, “Oh, nicely, they’re a pair.” Uh, (breathes frantically) they’re and it’s the worst!

VRAI: (Laughs)

CY: It’s compelled. It’s unhealthy. (Chuckles) It’s not good! Ah!

CHIAKI: Simply coming in, with all the pieces occurring, I simply assume he’s the worst particular person. I don’t know. I’ve no actual understanding of how he performs into this within the endgame, however I’m simply him like “I don’t belief you. You’re completely on an inventory.”

VRAI: Yeah. And this can be a good reminder, people at residence. If you’re watching alongside, don’t skip the recap episodes, as a result of (A) they’re a pleasant refresher, particularly should you’re us and plenty of issues occurred, and so this episode is being recorded a pair months after the final one. But in addition, they have a tendency to drop helpful little tidbits. Like, we do the truth is see Dios and that he and Akio have some type of relationship within the midst of “Additionally, right here’s what occurred within the final arc.” So, simply one thing to bear in mind going ahead. 

However I feel… Yeah, you talked about— I do have our notes right here, episode by episode. Let’s begin with Akio’s fiancée, Kanae, as a result of I feel her duel, as I feel y’all have famous right here, actually does type of set the tone for a way the remainder of these are going to work.

CY: Kanae simply looks as if such a candy woman, after which she goes into the Black Rose interview and he or she is rather like, “I’m a hater. And I hate my fiancé’s sister with a vengeance. One thing ain’t proper about that woman, and I don’t like her.” (Chuckles) And also you’re like, “Kanae! God, Anthy’s having such a shit time. May you hate anyone else?”

CHIAKI: Okay, right here’s the factor, although. I perceive completely the place she’s coming from as a result of this stuff are innocuous points that folks have with different folks that type of blossom into full-blown hatred as a result of folks don’t need to take care of it and folks assume that, you recognize, it’s simply gonna get higher as a result of the idea is, for Kanae, Anthy is a good particular person so clearly Anthy will act in a means {that a} first rate particular person will act. And Anthy doesn’t. And for anybody on the market, it doesn’t must be Anthy. It may have been anybody else. They don’t seem to be going to behave precisely as what you count on. 

And, like, oh yeah, should you give anyone a shawl they usually use it as one thing to scrub their glasses, nicely, folks simply use their scarves to scrub their glasses. It’s not like they had been making an attempt to insult you. However this stuff type of roll up into an enormous deal, and this primarily occurs while you simply don’t speak to folks or have a chance to actually be frank with one another, and that may harbor that entire hatred.

CY: I do marvel what Kanae’s relationship to Anthy would really be like if she understood the dearth of personhood that Anthy has so ingrained in her. And I’m wondering if she would really not be envious or jealous however really fairly understanding of the truth that Anthy may look like this very excellent particular person however that’s as a result of she has been molded to be what folks need her to be. It’s really deeply unhappy.

VRAI: That’s what all these monologues come again to, proper, is that every one these persons are blaming Anthy for no matter drawback is ripping them up, however they’re simply reflecting what they’re upset about onto her with out really contemplating who she is as an individual. Yeah, and particularly with the feminine characters. I feel, as you kind of nodded towards, there’s plenty of challenge of internalized misogyny in these conversations and the truth that ladies are set as much as be competitors to one another.

CY: It’s attention-grabbing as a result of Anthy is type of an attention-grabbing take a look at the “Not like different women” trope, solely it’s performed out in probably the most horrific means. Like, she isn’t like different women as a result of she doesn’t have any innate need, so far, to be like anybody in any respect. And it type of sucks from the angle of an Anthy-lover to see this poor baby simply get hate hurled at her once we know, because the viewer, Anthy has accomplished nothing to deserve this. Nevertheless she turned the Rose Bride, didn’t deserve that both. Simply sucks. And the one one who ought to look after her, her brother, aw, he tremendous sucks. She’s solely bought this one particular person on the planet, who’s bought a really fraught relationship along with her, and that’s kinda it. Oh, I’m sorry, and Chu-Chu. I can’t overlook the little monkey, can’t overlook my boy. However even he’s not good to her! Bro be consuming her cake on a regular basis. That’s not proper. Let Anthy have a slice.

CHIAKI: He’s a monkey. (Chuckles) Monkeys gonna do this.

CY: Chiaki, are you telling me to not flip my ire towards an animal? As a result of I cannot be stopped.


CY: You possibly can’t silence me.

CHIAKI: (light) Okay, okay.

VRAI: I imply, would Anthy approve? That is the woman who retains snails in her pencil field.

CHIAKI: That’s true.

CY: Properly, she doesn’t have sufficient of a private opinion to approve, although, Vrai! And it hurts! It hurts so unhealthy as a result of it simply sucks. It sucks. Though she does present some emotion this watch by means of, and woof, when she does it’s as a result of she’s in worry for her life. It’s like, oh, okay!

VRAI: She’s having a foul time.

CY: Yeah! Consistently, and he or she doesn’t deserve it.

VRAI: Mm-hm. I really like her.

CY: Nor does Kanae, truthfully. Not one of the women within the collection should have a foul time, and I do imply “none,” as a result of they’re additionally being manipulated. And so they’re being manipulated by males, by fairly—and I’m gonna take us again to the 2000s—by some unhealthy boy bishies.


VRAI: That’s acceptable for the convo.

CY: (tut-tutting) Mm-mm-mm! Mm-mm-mm! Yeah.

VRAI: I feel, Chiaki, you made the notice concerning the butterflies in our notes right here?

CHIAKI: Uh… I don’t know, was that?

VRAI: I feel? Or Cy, was that you simply?

CY: That was me!

VRAI: That was Cy! Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, as a result of that’s the opposite purpose that I needed to speak about that the Black Rose Saga is basically vital, and that’s gonna get far more pronounced to a principally comical diploma, is that the Black Rose Saga is right here so that you simply’ll be capable of learn the tip of the collection, which is far more surreal, the place that is type of principally structured like regular episodes however had been additionally loudly together with bits of symbolism the place, look, as they get extra determined and all the way down to their most base and cruel needs, the butterfly regresses right into a caterpillar larva. Take a look at it!

CY: Yeah. And I feel at their lowest emotional low in the course of the seminar, it turns into a leaf, so it’s not even a creature; it’s simply natural matter.

VRAI: Mm-hm. Yeah! Yeah.

CY: And, like… Yeah, yeah. I’m trying ahead to that surrealism as a result of I dig it.

VRAI: The third— The Apocalypse Saga actually is stupendous, however I additionally like Black Rose so much, too. Truly, you recognize, I made some notes about Mikage right here, however I feel we must always go away him for subsequent time, as a result of we’re about midway by means of and he’ll have some backstory episodes so we will speak extra about him then.

CHIAKI: We didn’t actually get plenty of him this arc anyway, proper? I imply, sure, he was round, however… yeah.

VRAI: However he’s principally, you recognize, machinating within the background, being a teen genius who’s horrible and a foil to Utena.

CY: Horrible, horrible bedside method as a therapist. Elevators as your workplace? Worst thought. Tremendous uncomfortable. (Obscured by crosstalk)

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) You understand, I imply, there’s attorneys that drive round in a limousine. Why not a therapist in an elevator?

VRAI: Was {that a} Cosmopolis reference, Chiaki? Was that only for me?

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) No, that was The Lincoln Lawyer.

VRAI: Honest. Honest.


CY: I imply, I get that he’s making an attempt to escalate the state of affairs, however… I don’t know. I wouldn’t belief a man who was like, “Get in my elevator and speak to me.” Uh-uh. No! Granted, the one particular person that is also like, “This doesn’t appear reliable,” Mikage is like, “You’re too good for this place. Get out!”


VRAI: Oh, we’re gonna discuss that. We’re gonna discuss that.

CHIAKI: I appreciated that.

VRAI: Sure.

CY: Yeah. (Chuckles)

VRAI: Let’s see. We kind of talked about Nanami and Tsuwabuki. The one different factor I need to spotlight from Tsuwabuki’s episode is the “These are all youngsters” ingredient of making an attempt to reflect habits from fiction, like with the kissing scene. I really feel like that’s a related theme all through, is all these youngsters are taking part in faux at issues that they don’t perceive however have actually critical penalties for them.

CY: It’s so humorous to me that Tsuwabuki went and bought the varsity’s assortment of French movies in order that he may watch kisses and he was like, “Sure. I perceive maturity.” And it’s like, no, sweetie, you might be in sixth grade. You don’t, and that’s okay. Don’t be in a rush to throw away childhood, as a result of as soon as childhood is gone you may’t reclaim it. You possibly can reclaim features, however when you’re an grownup you’re an grownup, and it kinda sucks.

VRAI: Mm-hm.

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) Yeah.

CY: Additionally, kissing is just not intercourse ed, Tsuwabuki.

VRAI: It’s not, bud, it’s not.

CY: It’s not. It’s not.

CHIAKI: However you recognize, it’s very grownup. It’s very mature.

CY: It’s. It’s.

VRAI: (Chuckles)

CY: And I suppose while you’re a child, that’s what maturity is, is it’s these exhibits of bodily affection that you simply see with adults like kissing and like swiping a bank card to pay for a meal as a substitute of going Dutch and, you recognize, these small hallmarks. Additionally, I simply need to chime in with “What the heck did Anthy imply by ‘Mistress Utena, we’re additionally adults, too’?” Women?

VRAI: Women, you’re 14.

CHIAKI: Center college.

CY: What? You’re youngsters.

VRAI: (Chuckles) I do must marvel if… And perhaps it will have simply been the identical as a result of it’s humorous this fashion, however this present did additionally premiere in a primetime slot the yr after Evangelion did all of the issues Evangelion did, they usually wrote a complete new slew of broadcast requirements!

CY: Oh! See, I do know so little about Evangelion. However that does make sense. Okay.

VRAI: That is me conjecturing, waving into— Like, I feel that’s believable, however I do not need specific notes about that, so… Anyway, let’s discuss Shiori, as a result of I’ve at all times kind of intellectually understood her however I felt like I actually emotionally linked along with her this watch, and in addition folks fucking hate her, so I need to know the way you’re feeling.

CY: What would assistance is: are you able to clarify why folks hate her? Why?

VRAI: For manipulating Juri. Like “Isn’t she a chilly heartless bitch who’s mocking this poor lesbian who’s in love along with her?”

CY: See, as a result of that’s— Okay. I didn’t hate her. If something, I felt this very human… like, oh gosh, this poor woman who’s made this horrendous mistake pondering she was getting somebody who was clearly the article of her affection’s consideration and as a substitute has ruined that star-crossed lover ever taking place. I didn’t hate her.

CHIAKI: Yeah, I see her positively extra tragic than somebody who imbues evil or gross teen attitudes or no matter. I imply, it’s nonetheless kinda gross teen attitudes, however that’s simply forgivable.

VRAI: Oh, yeah, she’s a multitude however an comprehensible mess.

CHIAKI: Yeah. I imply, my notes are positively… I used to be offended at Shiori as a result of I did positively say, in my notes, “Shiori, you dense motherfucker.” However—

VRAI: Yup!


CY: Yeah, you’re not flawed.

CHIAKI: However given all the pieces, she’s most likely simply as confused as anybody right here, and her lashing out is completely comprehensible.

CY: I imply, these sapphics be wilding!

VRAI: I really feel just like the Ikuhara particular is characters who you need to hug and shake concurrently. Like, my favourite character in Sarazanmai is Enta, and he totally fills the identical position as Shiori.

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that’s honest.

CY: Yeah, I felt for her however I did need to shake her. I used to be like, this isn’t a great good friend factor to do! Being a foul good friend, Shiori!

CHIAKI: I’m undecided she’s making an attempt to be a good friend at that time. It’s identical to (she’s) lashing out and is bitter and doesn’t know the way to take care of it.

CY: Yeah.

VRAI: And I feel— That is one the place I needed to learn the complete factor from the booklet. Which, you recognize, a few of these are simply Ikuhara doing musing or writing bizarre items of fiction. A few of them are like little items of character prose. And I really feel like Shiori’s is basically illuminating in a means that perhaps folks don’t learn her episode. I do know it definitely modified how I checked out her. 

So, the commentary for her episode is: “I lastly realized the reality. To suppose that she beloved me again! What a miracle! However… ‘The loser in love is the one who lets their coronary heart be dominated by it.’ Everybody’s adopted a provocative perspective in direction of somebody of the other intercourse that they like not less than a couple of times to get that particular person to note them. So it’s okay if I do this. This love will crumble if we contact. However when folks don’t contact, the love ultimately dies away. That’s why I made a decision to maintain your love prisoner. To just be sure you love me eternally. That recreation will make our love ‘everlasting.’ I’m positive of it. We had been ‘lovers misplaced from the start,’” which is a reference to a ‘70s movie.

CY: Yeah, I imply, that to me is just not a hateable character; it’s a very determined character. Who, as soon as once more, is a baby! Simply gotta say: nonetheless a baby. (Chuckles)

VRAI: That’s so poignant to me. These characters are all coming again to this infantile thought of wanting one thing that’s everlasting, that lasts eternally, which in fact nothing in life does, and that’s not at all times unhealthy. However the thought of when you fall in love, the honeymoon section ultimately ends, however should you simply ignore anyone, they lose curiosity. So, making an attempt to maintain anyone in love with you, like eternally pining, which, particularly with sapphic characters, may be very attention-grabbing to me. The pining lesbian is such a fucking trope, however Shiori is hurting herself, too, by doing this as a result of she’s additionally in ache and not likely getting to like somebody. And it’s fucking unhappy, you guys!

CY: Oh, it’s so unhappy. I knew from the second that that chicken flew into the glass and died. I used to be like, “So did their love.” They’re by no means gonna have… It’s simply by no means gonna be. And the second she opens that fucking locket and it’s an image of her, I used to be like, “God rattling it, Shiori. God rattling it, Shiori!” (Grunts in frustration), as a result of it’s identical to, “Oh, you didn’t have to harm one another like this,” but additionally, I feel they did, as a result of additionally it’s type of a commentary on, like, yeah, society is just not actually geared towards sapphicism. It simply isn’t, proper? And it simply hurts, it hurts so unhealthy and so good and so unhealthy all once more.

VRAI: Yeah, and I—

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) You understand what this college wants?

VRAI: Uh-huh?

CHIAKI: Not the confessional remedy room however a correct—

CY: Like a Satisfaction flag?

CHIAKI: —LGBTQ rainbow clubhouse. It simply wants a type of.

VRAI: And everybody could be in it, besides—

CY: Oh, my God, can they nonetheless ascend up that infinite staircase in order that banger of a tune…?


CHIAKI: I don’t know if that’s ADA accessible, although.

VRAI: There’s an elevator.


CY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You simply go up and the tune is simply muffled after which it’s blasting as soon as the doorways open.


VRAI: You understand what else-else fucks me up about Shiori is the truth that it’s so standard now, a long time later, to not have characters get collectively however simply load a present with transport fodder and never be committal.

CY: Time to ship a postcard and meet me on the tower!


CY: No, it’s actually unhappy, and I may perceive how if I had been a youngster who additionally didn’t perceive my id, I may hate Shiori. I completely—

VRAI: Yeah. Yeah, I really feel like she’s a personality you perceive extra as you grow old. Sorry, please go on.

CY: Yeah, I really feel like as a 31-year-old I’m like, “Wow, I’ve been and have seen so many queer folks throughout my 31, virtually 32 years of life, however have accomplished issues like this as a result of it’s a lashing out. It is extremely harking back to the sapphicism in Expensive Brother

VRAI: (whispering) A little bit bit!

CY: —the place characters additionally lashed out and simply did foolish stuff. However you’re additionally a child. You’re a child and also you’re making an attempt to determine all this out.

VRAI: I really feel like I undermined (Kozue’s) episode somewhat bit as a result of the bit from the booklet that I learn on our final episode speaking concerning the fascination with brother–sister incest as like “We’re not likely separate. We’re two halves of the identical particular person. We’re not likely two separate folks in a relationship,” that comes from her duel episode—and the battle that they’re having of they’re going to develop up and be totally different folks they usually’re not going to have the security of that relationship anymore. You understand, she even appears to be like visibly upset when she’s occupied with Utena telling her, “You understand, should you weren’t a lady, I wouldn’t be capable of inform you and your brother aside!”

CY: Oh, the heartbreak in her eyes!

VRAI: Like, no, puberty!

CY: Yeah. That one additionally kinda bought me as a result of… (Sighs) It’s simply so unhappy as a result of… I don’t have siblings, however I can solely think about the sensation of getting been likened to a sibling all of your life after which all of the sudden you two aren’t the identical folks, as a result of it’s attention-grabbing as a result of they sleep in the identical room. And I used to be like, “This room is fairly large, which most likely means the home is fairly large. Y’all may’ve had separate bedrooms,” however perhaps they didn’t need ‘em.

VRAI: However they nonetheless sleep in tiny toddler beds.

CY: (Laughs) They do sleep in these tiny twin beds! After which Miki brings them milkshakes each evening, which I really like. I did marvel, did he throw away hers when she denied it that first evening when she was like, “No, too mature to your… milkshake”? Yeah, as a result of she even fights along with her brother’s battle stance.

VRAI: Yeah, the entire Black Rose Duelists use the particular person they take from’s sword and magnificence.

CY: Which additionally… gosh, does it look painful to attract the sword from somebody who’s not alleged to have the sword inside them. Um… Does Anthy really feel that ache? We’ll by no means know. Or I suppose we would. Oh. Oh, no.

VRAI: Lot of assault imagery this arc!

CY: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

VRAI: So, yeah, ought to we simply get to Wakaba? As a result of I really feel like that’s the set of episodes that simply comes alongside and smacks folks within the face with a two-by-four, across the midpoint of the present.

CY: (crosstalk) Yeah, I actually suppose we must always.

CHIAKI: Let’s go.

CY: I feel we actually ought to. Yeah.

VRAI: Go for it. Inform me your emotions.

CY: Oh, God! Oh, gosh, wow.

CHIAKI: There’s a twist.

CY: Oh, gosh.


CY: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I felt so unhappy for her, as a result of I used to be like, okay, she’s gonna get out of this comparatively unscathed—kinda like Tomoko in Expensive Brother!

CHIAKI: (Laughs)

VRAI: No, no! Ikuhara checked out Tomoko and he was like, “Nobody at this college could be that nicely adjusted. This can be a lie!”

CY: Yeah. I imply, the reveal that (Laughs)… the reveal that she’s simply been conserving homeboy in her bed room is like, wait, what? Excuse me? Wow, simply the… Oh, my God. And the ache in Utena’s eyes when she has to battle her greatest good friend, who, to start with, doesn’t await Utena to attract her sword. She’s identical to, “En garde, sis!” And that’s not good. That’s not being a great good friend. I do know, you recognize, Black Rose, little bit of various persona, however that’s nonetheless not variety. And it’s unhappy. Oh, it’s so unhappy. Oh, Wakaba. Oh, woman, you didn’t deserve this. But in addition, her emotions really feel very legitimate in a very painful means.

CHIAKI: I imply, going again to the truth that she initially actually did have a crush on him was a great level. It’s laborious to shake these emotions typically.

CY: Yeah. And the truth that he simply makes use of her so callously. Similar to… (Sighs)

VRAI: (crosstalk) Saionji’s so attention-grabbing in me in these episodes as a result of I really feel like he’s not consciously utilizing her; he’s only a shithead in the best way that I feel notably cis teenage boys could be, the place he retains apologizing and genuinely making an attempt to depart as he’s imposing on her, after which when he offers up the leaf, he’s like, “Oh, nicely, I needed to provide a factor to say thanks. However this’ll assist me, so I’ll simply get her a greater, costlier factor later.” And he or she’s proven nonverbal indicators that that is vital to her, however she hasn’t overtly mentioned it, and he’s an oblivious teenage shithead, so it’s simply unhappy! It makes me actually unhappy how first rate he’s, after which he goes proper again to being a fucker.

CY: It’s so unhappy. Oh, my God, when he walks into college and everybody’s like, “Wait, how did he get previous being expelled? Maintain up. Wait a minute. What? He’s again? He’s again?”

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) I imply, that’s what you do.

CY: And I’m like, yeah, he’s again!

CHIAKI: That’s the type of gossiping you’ll do while you hear concerning the one child that bought expelled coming again.

CY: Yeah. And it sucks as a result of he does present that he has the capability to be a greater human being. And he’s like, “However what if I wasn’t?” And it’s identical to, no! However what should you had been? What should you had been?!

VRAI: And I really feel like the rationale I can really feel unhappy about Saionji, even though he bodily abuses Anthy and he’s type of an oblivious shithead to all the ladies in his life, is that the present… He looks as if he can get higher, and when he’s not beneath strain from poisonous masculinity he does, but additionally the present simply relentlessly dunks on him. Like, I don’t know should you’ve seen, however they’re instantly reusing the stills from his introduction within the very first episode in the course of the gossip scene…

CY: (amused) I did discover that, and it was so—

VRAI: … after which simply layering on dialogue of everybody speaking shit about him whereas he’s simply making an attempt to regain… when he thinks he’s like, “oh, yeah, I’ve bought this dealt with.” No, bud! You suck and also you’re unhappy!

CY: It’s like while you watch A Muppet Christmas Carol  and Scrooge is out on the street they usually’re like, “There goes Mr. Bitch! There goes Mr. Suck-Ass!”

VRAI: (Laughs)

CY: And Saionji’s appearing like he’s scorching shit they usually’re identical to, “Ah, this fucker once more.”


CY: After which they do reuse that also, and also you’re identical to, that is so humorous. This present doesn’t like this man! (Chuckles) It’s what he deserves.

VRAI: He does deserve it, is the factor. He does.

CY: It’s what he deserves.

CHIAKI: No, I imply, Saionji has at all times been on the highest of my “This motherfucker” record. And truthfully, I used to be extra offended at Wakaba for nonetheless being hung up on him. Understandably. Like, I perceive: when you’ve got a crush, you’ve gotten a crush. You do silly issues, particularly while you’re younger and also you don’t perceive. You possibly can repair him, for positive, for actual, for actual. However no, he sucks so unhealthy!

CY: Oh, he sucks so unhealthy.

CHIAKI: Even when there may be that glimmer of hope, none of those folks must be giving him the time. He must get higher on his personal, away from right here. He was expelled for a purpose. He must discover a higher place for himself simply as a lot as be away from these folks that he’s harmed.

VRAI: Proper. Yeah, each time he backslides, it turns into an issue of a lady close to him.

CY: That’s the factor, too. I imply, as a result of the ladies on this present… their backs should be aching, as a result of they’re carrying each single shitty man of their highschool and center college. And Saionji particularly does make it the issue of actually any girl in proximity. He simply sucks!

VRAI: Now there may be one—

CY: I hope he will get higher, however, you recognize, I’m not gonna maintain my breath on that one.

VRAI: There may be one boy on this run of episodes who principally doesn’t suck. And that will be Tatsuya, the Onion Prince.

CY: Oh, my God, the truth that they preserve that operating gag each time Wakaba’s like, “My Onion Prince will save me,” he’s like, “Whuh?” After which when he goes to admit and he or she’s like, “Off to see my prince!” he’s like, “What?” (Chuckles) This poor— I imply, are you aware how good it’s important to be for the Black Rose Circle to be like, “Truly, we’re not taking any new purchasers presently. So, it is best to go”?

VRAI: So, I feel that there’s two alternative ways you may learn that scene, which I discover actually attention-grabbing. So, that is the opposite episode that I needed to learn the complete notice from Ikuhara for, which is: “Why is it that ‘the trail he should take doesn’t lie right here’? In every other present, a personality like Tatsuya most likely would have been designed to achieve the viewers’s sympathy. Nevertheless, that is Revolutionary Woman Utena, and the Black Rose arc no much less. Anybody to open the door should be baptized. There are numerous issues on this world that don’t go the best way you need them to. Besides, the onion woman is making an attempt to be somebody particular. She’s combating. Isn’t that precisely the story that the Black Rose arc is making an attempt to inform? That’s why there’s no path right here from the boy who’s determined to only pray for her happiness from the sidelines. Normally, the issues that don’t go the best way you need them to have been determined by a system. How ought to we battle once we’re up towards an important energy, one troublesome to oppose? That’s why there’s no path right here for the boy who’s stop opposing it and determined to only pray for her happiness from the sidelines.”


CY: Mm.

VRAI: Proper?

CHIAKI: Okay. Yeah!

CY: Yeah, yeah! That truly… Yeah! Okay.

CHIAKI: That makes plenty of sense.

VRAI: Yeah. I favored that studying so much, and it’s attention-grabbing that that’s kind of the meant tackle the episode, but it surely did additionally strike me, rewatching, that he’s additionally the one character who blames himself somewhat than another person. He’s not actively combating for one thing, however yeah, he says, “What’s flawed with me?” He doesn’t say, “What’s flawed with her?” He’s not combating it for change towards a— Preventing for change towards a system is vastly the theme of the present, however he’s additionally not changing into a part of the equipment that retains the duel system operating. He accepts that he has a job and he or she had the suitable not to decide on him.

CY: Yeah, it’s a very self-aware second that he has, as a result of he actually simply involves the Black Rose Circle’s little one-on-one seminar. He simply kinda involves vent, as a result of he apologizes, he’s like, “I’m so sorry I barged in, however I simply really want to speak to anyone.” After which they’re like, “Mm, okay. Um, so, really, you’ve type of talked to your self about the issue. You’re not likely what we’re searching for as a result of you’re a little too self-aware.”

CHIAKI: (Chuckles)

VRAI: “Please go.”

CY: “We want somebody who’s within the throes, and also you’ve gone by means of it. So, simply mud off the chair. Signal out. Return. Don’t miss curfew!”


CY: However I kinda like that that’s the way it resolves. Proper? It’s good to see a personality that understands that perhaps they’re additionally a part of the issue that they’re feeling and that a part of the strain they’ve with Utena and Anthy may really come from themselves.

VRAI: Mm-hm. Did you’ve gotten any extra feels about…? Since you talked about up high, once we had been speaking about Anthy, that she actually exhibits some actual emotion in that scene.

CY: Oh, I simply— So, that scene, the place Wakaba attracts on Utena and is simply on the assault and Anthy screams and is begging her to attract the sword and battle again, hit me as a result of we’ve gone by means of a collection of episodes the place we’ve got now seen different folks have a sword drawn from them, and this can be very painful. There’s plenty of issues you may liken it to, however the one factor that connects each scene is it’s a viscerally uncomfortable and extremely violating factor. Which makes me marvel, does Anthy really feel that and he or she’s simply masking it? As a result of she’s this particular vessel and he or she’s a particular particular person, and the truth that she was begging Utena to attract the sword and screams and is frightened and is watching as Wakaba holds Utena on the blade’s edge and is keen to kill her, it makes me marvel what different feelings Anthy has been hiding for the sake of her position as she type of begins to disclose increasingly more feelings by means of her connection to Utena.

VRAI: Yeah, as a result of their relationship has actually come alongside and adjusted. Utena isn’t actively making an attempt to push her to be quote-unquote “regular” in some methods. Their relationship adjustments so much this arc.

CY: Yeah. It’s tremendous attention-grabbing, too, as a result of Anthy is beginning to have some autonomy. Like, she goes out on her personal. I imply, you recognize, in fact, it’s to go to her brother that abuses her, however (Chuckles) she does buy groceries on her personal and that’s good! And he or she has somewhat TV that she watches TV and eats her little chips in entrance of, and that’s tremendous cute.

VRAI: (crosstalk) She watches the house buying channel! She has probably the most—

CY: I really like that Anthy watches QVC.


CY: I really like that in an arc the place there’s an enormous MLM, Anthy sits down and he or she’s like, “You understand what? Let me simply watch some QVC. I may use a brand new gown.” I like it for her.

VRAI: Anthy has probably the most middle-aged auntie hobbies. It’s an exquisite character trait that I really like.

CY: Yeah. Strolling round knitting a pink sweater, watching QVC whereas consuming her little chips. Appeared like she was consuming both some simply common salt… Perhaps she will get delicate salt as a result of Anthy’s very acutely aware of her ldl cholesterol. You understand, cooking. I do like that there’s one level the place she’s like, “Oh, perhaps I may make some curry once more,” and Utena’s like, “No, no, no. Shut that down. No.”


CY: Like, one of many credit scenes. You understand, it’s simply very… She’s beginning to develop a persona, and I like who I feel she has the potential to be. I simply fear that she’s going to must undergo a lot to get there—a lot extra to get there.

VRAI: Yeah.

CY: Yeah. As a result of what number of episodes is that this anime once more, Vrai?

VRAI: It’s 39, and we’ve got watched 20.

CY: Oh! She’s gonna must undergo much more to get there. Mm, boy.

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) And there’s a film.

VRAI: There may be additionally a film, however the film’s type of a sequel.

CY: Okay.

CHIAKI: Yeah, however I imply, she additionally has to undergo the film.

VRAI: She does, she does.

CY: Okay, so, someday Anthy will probably be completely satisfied and have some autonomy. Y-Yay.

VRAI: (Chuckles)

CY: Yay.

VRAI: Was there something you needed to hit on, Chiaki, that we haven’t lined?

CHIAKI: You understand, really, only one factor about the entire Black Rose Saga, within the very first occasion of discussing that tower and simply casually mentioning that 100 folks have simply died there.

VRAI: Yeah!

CY: Oh, my God, yeah. And so they have the sneakers!

VRAI: Yup! Yeah.

CY: And am I appropriate that after they take the ring they’re simply cremating them? They’re like, “Oh. Yeah, (obscured by crosstalk).”

CHIAKI: (crosstalk) I imply, they had been lifeless already!

CY: “You’re lifeless, however you’re deader than lifeless, bruh. Tremendous un-useless.” It’s, uh, (Speaks in singsong) fairly unhappy.

VRAI: Yeah.

CHIAKI: Little fucked up there, bro.

VRAI: Properly, that is the person who would use the sarin fuel assaults as a thematic motivator for the collection he made after this. So, yeah.

CHIAKI: Ah, honest.

CY: Wait, what collection got here after this?

CHIAKI: Penguindrum.

VRAI: (crosstalk) Penguindrum, which is definitely the one one in all his collection I’ve not watched.

CHIAKI: It’s bought penguins!

CY: I’m gonna inform you, after— I doubt it’s about penguins, Chiaki! Don’t you— Nope, it’s not about penguins!

VRAI: It does have penguins in it.

CY: I’ll say, this has positively made me need to watch Yurikuma Arashi. And I’ll say, between the recording of the primary episode of this collection and this one, I did see the opening and whoa, oh, my God! Was that allowed to be on TV?

VRAI: Yurikuma’s attractive!

CY: Jesus Christ!

CHIAKI: So, Yurikuma bought in hassle, from what I perceive.

CY: Actually? As a result of it’s tremendous attractive! It’s tremendous attractive in that opening and I used to be like, whoa.

VRAI: Yeah, yeah, maintain off on that. We’ll podcast about that if y’all are recreation, as a result of you don’t have any thought how a lot I’d love to listen to your ideas on Yurikuma.

CY: Oh, gosh, I used to be like… What’s the joke, “Kuma shock”? I used to be having some kuma shock!


CY: I used to be like, oh, my God! Whoa! Yeah, so I’m getting that he’s type of a freak of a artistic. He type of a freak and I kinda like that.

VRAI: (Chuckles) Alright. Alright, so, for the following episode of the podcast, we will probably be watching episodes 21 by means of 27, which is the remainder of the Black Rose Saga and simply kind of touching our toes into the Apocalypse Saga. Yay!

CY: Ooh!


CY: Yay!

VRAI: So you’ll get to have somewhat little bit of that good, good surrealism, Cy.

CY: I’m excited.

CHIAKI: Excited.

VRAI: Yeah! Of us appear to be actually, actually having fun with y’all’s reactions, and that makes me so completely satisfied. It actually does. It’s been such a pleasure to do that.


CY: Oh, I’m so glad persons are having fun with us react to this genuinely good present that I’ve by no means identified I wanted.

CHIAKI: I’m having fun with it.

VRAI: (Chuckles) I feel that this Utena present is perhaps good! No, however actually, I’m actually glad that you simply’re genuinely having fun with it, exterior of content material causes. That makes me tremendous completely satisfied.

CY: I’ll say, the one unhealthy factor to return out of this watch is that I preserve going round my home singing the tune! Within the background, I’m like, (Sings) “Zettai unmei moku…” (Laughs) I’m simply going round the home and I’ll simply be like, (Sings) “Darkness within the mild!”


CY: Each time I stroll up the steps it begins taking part in, in order that’s most likely not an important behavior I picked up. However it’s a banger. It’s such a banger!

CHIAKI: It’s a great tune.

VRAI: It’s, is the factor.

CY: (whispering) It’s a great tune.

VRAI: Alright.

CY: And the lyrics change somewhat relying on who it’s. Yeah, it’s nice.

VRAI: They do, they do. There’s a particular insert tune for each duel that at all times is each a bunch of nonsense phrases and in addition broadly thematically related, like Wakaba’s tune speaking about Pyrrhic victories. Yay, it’s unhappy!

(Darkish chuckling)

CY: Find it irresistible.

VRAI: Anyway, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us, AniFam. As I discussed up high, should you favored this, you may at all times discover all of our hyperlinks now on our Linktree, /animefeminist. Or in order for you an inventory the old style means, you may try our web site or, the place we’ve got cool merch that tells folks that they need to watch extra shoujo, for instance, or be a cute trans magical woman.

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